August 06, 2003, 11:56 p.m.
The following conversation is an example
of my current conundrum. Recently I've been concerned that the sheer act of submission
is a contradiction of my highest values, something I have always taken quite seriously.
While the conversation meanders from the topic of a question I posted on a board for
other community members to answer (below), through a philosophical debate and ends up
back on the seesaw of values, this sort of thing has become very common. In an upcoming
article I plan on discussing trust and it's relevance to D/s activities. For now, since
I haven't updated in about a month and a half, I thought I'd start by sharing this. As
some might pick up, my feelings seem rather negative at the moment.
************************************************
FROM: mint DATE: Sunday, July 27, 2003 at 4:22am
I'll try to keep the question short this time ;>
To put it simply, is an altruistic submissive "better"
than a sub who acts because of selfish pleasure?
Things to consider:
1) An altruist doesn't care about themselves, only the good of another.
2) The 'selfish' cares more for their own good than the other.
3) An altruist acts out of duty
4) A 'selfish' acts because they genuinely want to, as it furthers their
desires and goals.
5) An altruist sees worth in their actions, not necessarily themself.
6) A 'selfish' gains worth because their actions benefit themself.
So which one is it and why do you believe that? Can you give an example
to back this up? Hopefully this won't come down to a terminology debate,
though I fear it will. Just remember, one definition of altruism is:
"Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the
individual [ie, selfless] but contributes to the survival of
the species (or another)."
Pure altruistic behaviour can not benefit the giver, else it is partially
selfish ;>
*************************************************
Player 2 enters.
Player 2 looks around as he walks in
Player 2 's eyes linger on the girl sitting there, a smile tugs at the corner of
his mouth. He watches her as she sits in silence, her head bowed
mint arches a brow
Player 2 smiles at her. Hi there
mint says: Hello
Player 2 watches her, still standing in the doorway
Player 2 asks: am I intruding on your solitude?
mint says: This is an open room, so no.
Player 2 asks: may I ask why you sit here alone?
mint says: Because I was reading the board and then became distracted elsewhere.
Player 2 says: ahh.. should I leave you be? You don't seem to be interested in
conversation...
mint says: You don't seem to be offering any conversation. You're merely
staring.
Player 2 shrugs slightly. Was only curious
- Player 2 reads the message board.
Player 2 asks: What do YOU think?
mint says: The best motivation for any action is one that allows the actor to
gain something in return. A good submissive should be selfish so that she's
eager to please, thereby gaining what she desires most.
Player 2 nods. I agree. I have no interest in a submissive who wants nothing for
herself. The pleasure of controlling someone comes from giving someone
something they truly crave
mint nods
mint says: gives you more leverage anyway ;>
Player 2 smiles. Yes. I want someone to submit to me because the need to, not
because they feel it's their duty
mint asks: you think submission is a need, and not just a desire?
Player 2 shakes his head. I imagine it depends on the person. For some I guess it
to be just another expression of their sexuality. Others are made whole by it
mint asks: and you?
Player 2 smiles
Player 2 says: I don't quite know. You might get a different answer depending on
which day you ask...
mint says: then perhaps more introspection is required
Player 2 says: I happen to think too much introspection leads to more confusion,
rather than to clarity
mint says: that's why you need a point of focus.
Player 2 says: I lean towards needing it, but I would not say that I ALWAYS need it
Player 2 asks: Does that make any sense whatsoever?
mint says: I use carus for just such things. I pick a topic then think about
it. Otherwise I'm just bogged down by the complexities of everything
intermeshing chaotically.
mint says: yes, it does.
Player 2 asks: and for yourself?
mint says: humans aren't robots and crave change. To not do something
constantly is just part of human nature.
mint says: I have no answer for that question.
Player 2 asks: none whatsoever?
Player 2 says: you wouldn't be here, asking those questions if you hadn't given
some thought to submission.. either the need OR the desire
mint says: I am currently undecided as to how bdsm fits into my life, and more
importantly, my values. Obviously I've given D/s some thought, but that
doesn't mean I'm decided.
Player 2 nods. It's much easier to live with it as a desire, something you can
indulge in.
mint says: but that doesn't mean I should, if it contradicts or undermines my
highest values. So I need to figure that out.
Player 2 asks: oh? and what are your [highest] values?
mint says: that's a big question.. one I'll probably answer on carus some day.
Player 2 asks: what about submitting would undermine your values, morals, just for
example?
mint says: the fact that submitting to another throws into question just how
much you value yourself. What is my worth if I allow my will to be held by
another? Self-worth is a major value for me, along with competence and
individuality. Submission, by it's nature, aims to question those values
Player 2 shakes his head. I don't think you need to question your self worth
simply because you might find yourself on your knees in front of someone. Your
will, it isn't something that once given cannot be taken back. Each act of
submission is a question unto itself..
mint says: I think -I- do. My questions are not necessarily relevant for
everyone, but they're important to me. I need to think about them because I
can't have contradicting values.
Player 2 studies you. Why do you think it diminishes you to let your will be held
by another?
mint says: It's something I need to consider, yes.
Player 2 shakes his head.. you misunderstand. WHY do you think that?
mint says: Because of exactly the way you said it. Allowing my will to be
under the control of another means I don't have it. In theory, it's true a sub
could get up and walk away at any moment. In practice, because of the
headspace games we play, that's not always an option. So I question whether I
value constant free-will over temporary, voluntary control.
Player 2 nods slowly. I don't know.. I don't think there is anything
self-deprecating about submission.. if there were, it would be to dominate
someone as well...
mint asks: pardon?
Player 2 says: if it's [self-deprecating] to submit, it's self-deprecating to
dominate someone
mint says: That's true
Player 2 says: on the other hand... sometimes it is good for the soul to wallow in
filth..
mint says: no, it's not.
Player 2 asks: you don't think so?
mint says: no, otherwise I'd have no remorse in murder or the reckless
endangerment of my life, such as a night with a prostitute.
Player 2 says: I didn't say what was good for the soul is good for the body
mint says: if you value filth, and it makes you happy, then I'd say you have
very low values. I personally do not find pleasure in such things, and having
to "wallow" around would only reflect poorly on myself. I might as well not
value anything if I'm going to consciously contradict myself.
Player 2 smiles. You don't think it does you good sometimes to be treated like a
slut?
mint says: no.
Player 2 shakes his head. I disagree, but that's my opinion
mint asks: do you want to be treated like a slut?
Player 2 smiles. At times.. probably more often if I had a submissive nature
mint asks: why?
Player 2 says: being treated like that absolves anyone of their actions, and there
is a freedom there
mint asks: why doesn't it just make you guilty of more?
Player 2 asks: sorry?
mint asks: you said "absolves". Why doesn't consciously acting against your
values simply make you guilty of even worse atrocities against yourself? How
does "wallowing" and sinking beneath that which you hold to be the highest,
somehow make you better?
Player 2 shakes his head.. I don't know the answer to that question... but I do
know this..
Player 2 says: Despite everything.. despite art and poetry and all of mans high
ideals.. despite his knowledge and all his efforts to lift himself out of brute
animalism, there are times when all I want is to grab someone by the hair and
force them down on the floor
mint asks: why?
Player 2 shakes his head. I don't know. It's instinct..it's a need. Society and
morality has trained us not to indulge in this, but we still crave it
mint says: you speak for everyone.
Player 2 smiles. Only one half of the species
mint says: I'm certain many would be offended by your accusation.
Player 2 says: I'm sure. It is though, the truth
mint says: I disagree.
Player 2 asks: why?
Player 2 asks: you don't think every man wants that?
mint says: I don't think every man wants that. I know some who don't take any
pleasure in such a base act. Many require meaning behind their actions, not
just the actions themselves.
From here, we got into a debate that
was more or less philosophical with sprinkles of social commentary. We pick up
the bdsm discussion a bit down the way. While I prefer to keep my articles focused
on just submission or related topics, it seemed this conversation had to take a
slight detour before continuing. If you'd like to skip over this section, just
[ click here ]
Player 2 says: moral conditioning
mint asks: why is having morals a bad thing?
Player 2 says: it isn't. it is a good thing.
mint asks: then why go against that?
Player 2 says: because it's an artifact
mint says: please explain.
Player 2 says: it's something which we've put in place to allow our society to
function. that's good, to a degree. it doesn't rid us of that desire though,
it's still there
Player 2 says: and every man, if he is honest with himself, will confess to it
Player 2 says: I guarantee it
mint asks: Why should we indulge in that which we know is wrong?
Player 2 says: I'm just sayin that the desire for it is there
Player 2 says: wether we should indulge in it or not is a different question I
suppose
mint asks: Do you believe we should make an excuse for our animalistic
behaviour instead of trying to rise above it; something we have shown to be
capable of?
Player 2 says: we only rise above it at the cost of other things..
Player 2 says: war, murder, insanity, neurosis...
mint says: please elaborate
mint says: It sounds like you're saying something like "at the cost of a war
and no debauched sex, we've made it to the moon and our on our way to curing
cancer."
Player 2 asks: you think modern society is a panacea??
mint says: I think modern society is much better off than it was in the middle
ages.
Player 2 asks: for who?
Player 2 asks: the 1/6th of the population who lives in the western world?
mint says: I suppose the people that don't die of the plague or just because
we're 28 years old, that use cars, or that have an education, or the ability to
demonstrate free-will without inquisitional repression.
Player 2 says: people still die of the plague... long life isn't necessarily
better than a short one, cars are destroying the earth and i think it's naive
to think that we have free will in our consumerist culture
mint says: No one's putting a gun to my head to buy barbie dolls.
mint says: It's a benefit to live longer because we can accomplish more with
our lives.
Player 2 says: no, but we're told what to wear, what to eat, what to feel
mint says: That some people are still "wallowing" in poor conditions is an
effect of advancements trying to catch up to them for whatever reason.
Player 2 says: no
mint says: That's bull. No one tells me any of those things, ever.
Player 2 shakes his head. We're living in a dream in the western world. There's no
way we could be living like this if it weren't on the backs of others
mint asks: you mean our Forefathers?
Player 2 says: no.. i mean the rest of the world
mint asks: oh, I didn't know I was trampling over people because I had a can of
ravioli for lunch. Do you believe America is inherently evil?
Player 2 says: if everyone in the world lived like we do, the planet would be dead
in a hundred years
Player 2 says: I think the message that this is the right way to live is
inherently evil
mint says: Do you drive a car? Do you eat from prepackaged food? Do you
always always always recycle absolutely everything and have a compost pile?
Player 2 says: i'm not saying I'm not part of it
Player 2 says: i said 'we'
mint says: Then your argument is irrelevant.
Player 2 says: no it's not
mint says: It does no good to preach something you refuse to practice.
Player 2 asks: how do you practice non-consumerism in western society?
mint says: This is why I'm examining the value of D/s in the first place. I
don't want to be accused of a contradictory existence.
mint asks: How do you practice non-consumerism in ANY society?
mint says: Societies are built upon markets. Otherwise you go and live in the
woods, hunt everything and grow it yourself. Society is based on bartering.
But we're not being forced to buy anything in particular. WE have a wide
variety of businesses to choose from, some that are big, some that are family
owned.
Player 2 shakes his head.. my point was that society and morals are just an
artifact.. I'm not trying to argue for or against their existence..
mint asks: Are you saying that morals and society/civilization are useless and
out of date, effectively surviving no useful purpose?
Player 2 says: and what I said was those desires will still be there no matter how
many barriers we put in place
Player 2 says: I'm still going to want to do that
Player 2 says: and I DO do that
Player 2 says: only in a consensual form
mint says: I don't see them as barriers. They're choices. We're free to make
good and bad choices.
Player 2 asks: are you telling me you don't, ever, want to be treated like that?
mint asks: like a "slut"?
Player 2 says: yes, like a slut
Player 2 says: don't say it like it's a bad word
mint says: tell me how me being treated like a slut benefits me first.
mint says: I hate to break it to you, but it is a bad word with severe negative
overtones. We use it in bdsm play to heighten and praise, but that doesn't
mean it's not ALSO an insult outside of bdsm.
Player 2 says: sure, whatever, as in one who sleeps around indiscriminately, fine..
Player 2 asks: shall I make it more eloquent?
mint says: Use whatever term suits your purposes.
Player 2 says: it doesn't benefit you... nor does it benefit me, it's simply a
need that I want to fulfill..
Player 2 says: there's nothing evil, or repulsive or negative about that
mint says: Then you should fulfill it with someone who sees a benefit in it,
because if I don't, then it won't be something I practice.
Player 2 says: well obviously if you have [no] desire for it you won't..
Player 2 asks: if you do though, fulfilling the desire would be the benefit, would
it not?
mint says: Happiness is not a value, but an outcome from fulfilling your
values. If you value being treated like a slut, then yes, doing so will bring
you happiness. If I value being treated like something else, then that
"something" will be my value and will lead to happiness once I fulfill it.
Player 2 grins
Player 2 says: I think you've read too much ayn rand
mint says: I've not read any ayn rand.
Player 2 asks: I hope i'm not offending you with this conversation?
mint says: You've not lobbed any insults at me, just presented your point of
view. I don't agree with it, but that does mean I've been personally offended.
Player 2 says: ok..
Player 2 says: i just thought you were getting rather vehement that's all
Player 2 grins
mint says: no, I can remain quite calm during debates ;>
Player 2 says: well good
Player 2 says: sometimes I can't
mint asks: Do you feel I've offended you?
Player 2 says: not at all
Player 2 grins. I'm just convinced in my being right
mint says: most people are, else they would hopefully change their opinions
quickly.
Player 2 smiles. So, if you have no craving to be treated like that, what does
submission mean for you?
mint says: I've partially answered that in one article on Carus.
Player 2 smiles. I'd rather hear it from your lips so to speak
mint says: I wrote Carus, so it is from my lips.
http://carus-anima.diaryland.com/030425_58.html
mint says: but you can scroll down to 2
Player 2 nods. Well I suppose I would agree with that for the most part
mint asks: Not that it applies to me but what do you disagree with?
Player 2 smiles. Nothing in particular, it's just a little too theoretical for my
taste
mint asks: Is something missing?
Player 2 shakes his head. I think you're trying to make it sound sweet and nice
that's all
mint asks: Is there something wrong with trying to see a good reason for doing
something? Or do you believe I'm putting a false light on something?
Player 2 nods. The latter.
Player 2 asks: and.. why do you need a reason to do what you WANT to do??
mint says: Because everything I do should be a reflection of my values :>
Player 2 says: well then I guess you need to know what your values are first..
mint says: exactly ;>
Player 2 grins and studies you. What do you come here for then?
mint says: Conversation of course. I like learning about other peoples opinion
to see if they make sense and can fit in with my own.
Player 2 nods. and what about play? do you indulge in that?
mint says: Not currently. 1) I can't find people that have the same "serious"
interests in bdsm as myself. Most people here just want some quick net.sex.
I'm not here to just get off. 2) I can't focus on the act when I have all
these questions about values running around, so to be on the safe side I'm
holding off until I'm sure.
Player 2 nods. That might be a good idea. Perhaps you shouldn't [over analyze] though
:)
mint says: I'm not sure what you mean by "[over analyze]". I'm seeking answers,
and the only way to do that is to question the situation.
Player 2 nods. well you're certainly an interesting girl, mint
mint says: I hope that's a compliment ;>
Player 2 says: of course
mint says: Well thank you :>
Player 2 bows. You're quite welcome
mint says: And thank you for the conversation.
